Wikibooks:Requests for deletion/Micronations

Micronations

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Kept, been open a while and no consensus has been gained for deletion. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 23:43, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[]

I think this book should be deleted, as the book does not serve any purpose. "Micronations" aren't real to begin with, and what I am seeing are users trying to use their own definition of a micronation. It feels like a fantasy book. Leaderboard (discuss • contribs) 17:32, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]

  • Many people consider the creation of a micronation as a hobby not necessarily to be taken seriously by others, I believe this book has as much of a purpose as books on woodworking, cooking, painting etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.29.96 (talk • contribs) 18:20, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
    • "not necessarily to be taken seriously by others" - so therefore, it's not exactly "Educational", is it? —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 18:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Delete - Voting delete due to its vast history of being the center of multiple hoax "micronations" and, imo, fails Wikibooks:How-to textbook guidelines: "These should be educational resources worthy of being called a Wikibook." This doesn't seem educational or useful to me considering that creating a micronation isn't exactly replicable. —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 18:30, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • save instead of deleting one of the few good resources for basic research in the field of micronations try considering this book as a useful in theoretical planning of new nations as a hobby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.29.96 (talk • contribs) 18:38, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
It'd be more useful if it included some factual material rather than ideas dreamt up by the editors. For example, a book on how to build a warp engine from things you find in your garage would not actually be educational despite suggesting that it was useful for someone "theoretically planning" to travel faster than the speed of light. I think the scope of the book needs to be looked at carefully if it is going to be kept. QuiteUnusual (discuss • contribs) 20:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • This book does include factual information quoted from international law on the creation of new states, so if someone had the will to build a nation and the money to back it up this book would provide useful information — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.13.29.96 (talk • contribs) 20:19, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Comment I've only skimmed the book so I may be off the mark here. I think if the book examined things such as the relation between micro nations and recognized states it would be of more scholarly use. For example, compare the symbiotic relationship the Conch Republic has with Florida as a tourism attraction with the swift rebuke of Liberland by it's neighbors. Or look at what circumstances causes a micro nation to be founded, like Sealand or the recent attempt to temporarily settle East Sister Island as a sort of COVID-19 isolation state. I think the interplay between recognized nations and micro nations, and the tangible effects they have are quite worthy topics. Meanwhile, current chapters such as Micronations/Starting your own micronation/Extraterrestrial Territory are hard to take seriously. For example, I don't think any nation would declare war on someone for claiming all of space, as such people would most likely be ignored. However if this chapter included serious discussion on what technology, economics, and other requirements needed to create a self sustaining micro nation in space (Basically impossible at the moment, even if you're a billionaire with a private space company, but it's worthwhile naval gazing), as well as the social challenges resulting in successfully claiming empty space that recognized states do not already claim with plausible reactions based on existing treaties and law would be interesting. In short I think there could be a good Wikibook on Micronations, but am unsure if there will be one, if that makes any sense. As a slight tangent, the designing a flag page is pretty decent, if short, and would do well in a Wikibook about Vexillology, if there was one. --Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 22:34, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]

I would agree that there are pages in the micronations book that are more sci-fi that instructional. If the sci-fi pages were removed and the other chapters rewritten to be more neutral and informational would that make to book more worthy of saving? 68.13.29.96 (discuss) 23:05, 3 February 2021 (UTC)[]

Comment I'm not saying that those pages would necessarily have to be deleted, especially if they can be made useful. I'm saying that the book would have to be useful in a classroom environment to be kept. In order for a book on Micronations to work on Wikibooks, I think it would have to approach it from a sociological (How Micronations interact with Society), historical (History of Micronations), psychological (Who are the people that found micronations, and do they share common psychological traits), economical (How does a micronation make money), civics (What is the role of a citizen who starts their own nation? What does that mean in the context of their original country?), or political science (How micronations treat other nations and how they are treated by other nations) perspective (Really making it relate to any academic discipline as a goal while writing would be a huge step in the right direction). I hope this explanation helps, though this is really just my personal understanding of things. I'm relatively new to Wikibooks myself so I'd want an more senior user to confirm if this point of view is decent before taking this as a good interpretation of Wikibooks policy. --Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 07:58, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[]
A phrase found in our documentation is "textbooks, manuals, and other instructional texts". Often we just say "textbooks", but I don't know of a precise definition of that on this sister (though we sometimes consult en.wp's article); it's not clear to me that classroom use is required. Just saying. I myself have contributed a great deal over the years to book Conlang, and hope someday it'll be ready to apply for Featured status, but haven't really thought about how it would play in a classroom. There are quite a few academic courses in conlanging; I believe some linguistics educators find it a deeply thoughtful way of engaging students into their subject. So, while I agree that fiction is rather beyond-the-pale original research, seems to me requiring classroom use may be a bit too conservative. --Pi zero (discuss • contribs) 13:44, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[]
Comment Thank you for the clarification! That makes a bit more sense. --Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 15:40, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Comment : How about a cleanup instead? I've looked through it a bit, and it generally looks alright; micronations may be made-up entities, but the concept of micronations is not, and there is a wealth of reliable sources that this is the case; e.g. try googling "Principality of Sealand". However looking at the Micronations/Starting your own micronation section is where the difficulties arise, it looks like primary research; or if was actually sourced it seems fantasy oriented. If the book is kept, these "Starting your own micronation" pages could be deleted or redirected, the TOC updated, the rest of the book would probably be OK. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 16:00, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[]
Keep I agree about cleanup. I've begun working on a section called How Micronations Function which looks at how existing micronations tend to interact with their host nation. It's stubs right now, but I think there's real potential about this topic now that I've thought about it more. --Mbrickn (discuss • contribs) 18:42, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[]
  • Comment I've redirected some pages that I feel are very likely to breach WB:OR rules. Maybe more of it needs to go, if anyone's interested in further cleanup please go ahead, it may well be needed. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 21:19, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[]
Well it could be RfDed, or at least cleaned-up. But I do know that islands are manufactured, Dubai being the obvious example, so it seem reasonable to have a book on island construction. There is some sourcing; but how close the book is to reality is not something I'm sure about. But overall I think its best to have it separate from the Micronations book (if at all). --Jules (Mrjulesd) 13:51, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[]
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